Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska, Podcaster & Project Manager (Episode 53) | Kasia wants to change academia from the inside
For this episode of the Research Adjacent podcast Sarah is talking to Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska. Kasia is project manager for the IgG4-TREAT Consortium at the Medical University of Vienna in Austria. She also created the podcast Science on Trial and Error.
From researcher to research manager
Kasia’s current role is for a research consortium which spans 7 different organisations across Europe. Kasia is relatively new to research management, but has relished the opportunity to get involved in a wide range of activities.
“I’ve been learning a lot because I had to just jump right into the project. I’m really surprised how much comes into play. You have to go between finances and event management and also recruitment of people, as well as supporting the training effort. Mostly I’m just proud of seeing myself grow. I really have achieved so much in less than a year in this new job.”
This move into research management was inspired by a friend who explained that it was a way to stay connected to research while supporting both researchers and students. Kasia began to explore alternative pathways during her PhD – learning from LinkedIn and podcasts, while figuring out how to reframe her experience.
“At first I was like, I literally just did research, how can I get this job? But my podcast work and all the other things that I’ve been doing as kind of side tasks during my PhD, all the events that I was involved in and some science communication situations. Suddenly I really need these aspects as part of my job.”
Learning to let go
Kasia’s move into the research-adjacent world came after an emotionally challenging PhD in developmental biology.
“Academia can bring you down. You get so many rejections – the papers are not accepted, you don’t get the funding – and there’s so much competition. It can really feel like you are failing more than you are succeeding and this can bring even the most enthusiastic science passionate person down.”
Kasia also found the competitive ego-driven academic culture challenging.
“When you go through something difficult and you still succeed, you should think, okay, I had a very tough time. I would like to fix it for other people. Whereas a lot of people think I managed to go through it because I’m the best. If someone is also good, they also have to go through fire.”
The decision not to pursue a post-doc was a difficult one for Kasia – not just to come to terms with herself, but also to explain to her family.
“It requires a certain time, even a grieving period to properly adjust. Because I went into the PhD thinking I’m going to be a professor. And the decision to actually step outside, that was a long process. It was not a very easy decision. It felt a little bit like failing at first.”
Putting research on trial
It was this disillusionment with academia that led Kasia to launch her podcast Science on Trial and Error.
“I started to realize that not only I am struggling, but also many people around me are struggling and everybody feels extremely alone in how they feel and they are afraid to admit it because they don’t want to feel like they are failing.”
The first season focused on talking to people at different levels of academia about their careers and the challenges they face.
“I feel like it made me realize how great science is. How great are the people who are doing science. But also it was opening my eyes to a lot of the problems that are out there.”
The second season looks beyond academia where she has started to find hope.
“I feel like it’s been actually much more hopeful than the previous season. I feel like people are recovering when they get out. And there’s a little bit more space to reflect, but also be more hopeful. Once you get out of this sometimes toxic academic environment you really start seeing how different life can be.”
Contributing to culture change
One of the things Kasia is most enjoying about her research-adjacent role is the opportunity to mentor and help create a healthier research culture. A recent example was a blind PhD student recruitment process which obscured candidates name, gender, country of origin and age. They were aiming for an equal gender split, but actually ended up recruiting 80% female candidates.
“Academia is still very antiquated and we just need to shake the dust off and start progressing a little bit faster into the new century.”
Find out more
- Connect with Kasia on LinkedIn
- Listen to the Science on Trial and Error podcast on LinkedIn, Instagram, Spotify, Apple Podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts
- Find out more about the IgG4-TREAT Consortium on their website or LinkedIn
Theme music by Lemon Music Studios from Pixabay
Episode Transcript
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 00:00
Academia is still very antiquated, and we just need to shake the dust off and start progressing a little bit faster into the new century. Recently, mostly, I’m just proud of seeing myself grow. I have achieved so much in less than a year in this new job.
Sarah McLusky 00:20
Hello there. I’m Sarah McLusky, and this is Research Adjacent. Each episode I talk to amazing research adjacent professionals about what they do and why it makes a difference. Keep listening to find out why we think the research adjacent space is where the real magic happens. In this episode, I’m talking to Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska. Kasia first came into my orbit as a podcaster. She created the podcast which was originally called Science on Trial and is now called Science on Trial and Error. It grew out for frustration at the often toxic research culture she experienced as a PhD student. Kasia has now completed her PhD and moved into the research adjacent world, becoming a project manager for a research consortium at the Medical University of Vienna in Austria. This transition was emotional at times. Kasia describes coming to terms with stepping out of academia as like grieving, but ultimately, she has found a more hopeful world on the other side. In our conversation, we talk about her journey, current challenges in academia and how research adjacent roles can make a positive difference. Listen on to hear Kasia’s story. Welcome along to the podcast. Kasia. It’s lovely to have you here, and I wonder if we could begin our conversation by hearing a little bit about what it is that you do.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 01:41
Thank you, Sarah, for the invitation. It’s a pleasure. I’m currently working as a project manager at the Medical University of Vienna in Austria, and I actually work for a big consortium that is funded by the EU, and it’s a doctoral network consortium, so it’s between seven different research institutions in Europe, and it employs, currently, it’s starting to employ 10 PhD students who will be also trained within the consortium. So it’s quite a big project, and it’s coordinated from the Medical University, and I am, yeah, helping with honestly everything, just problem solving as we go. It’s quite an interesting job and never boring. Honestly.
Sarah McLusky 02:30
Yeah, excellent. So you’re quite new into that role, aren’t you? How are you finding that?
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 02:35
I started in October, so, you know, less than a year, and it’s been a bit of a roller coaster, in a way that, you know, coming from research position that I was doing before. It was a bit of a jump, but it’s been great. I’ve been learning a lot, like, really, really a lot, definitely, the pace is quite quick, because I had to just jump right into the project that started in September, literally. But, yeah, it’s been, it’s been great. I am really surprised how much comes into play. You know, you have to go between finances and event management and also recruitment of people, as well as supporting the training efforts. So it’s, it’s very wholesome job.
Sarah McLusky 03:23
Yes, yeah a lot going on. So that and so what you’ve you’ve said a little bit there that you were a researcher up until you started this job. Tell us a little bit about that, your journey, that transition, why you decided to go in this direction.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 03:39
So I did my bachelor’s and master’s in Poland in biotechnology, and then I moved to Vienna to pursue a PhD. And I actually worked on a project in developmental biology. It was very interesting, quite long project, because it involved working with animals, and I defended my thesis, actually almost exactly to the day a year ago. So it’s, yeah, I got my PhD, and then I I decided, for both career related, but also personal reasons, to not further continue with academic work, and I was looking for something that would still keep me research adjacent, and to be able to maybe also still help with the things that I consider to be a little bit wrong with academia. And I was talking to a friend who is also a project manager with several grants, and she said, this is a great way, because you can, you know, still have your say and your input. You can support the people who are doing research, but you can also support the students, and this was very important for me, so that definitely led me to this, this choice,
Sarah McLusky 04:54
Yeah, and how do you feel that transition’s been in terms of sort of taking those skills that you’ll have had from doing a PhD, but but using them in a different way. Has that been straightforward, or have there been challenges along the way?
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 05:09
Oh, definitely. I feel like it’s a it’s a process, from when you decide that you want to step outside the canonical academic pathway to realizing what can you bring outside of academia, and how does it translate? I’ve been doing a lot of research on that and trying to, you know, like, learn from LinkedIn, listening to podcasts, to really understand what it is that I’m bringing. Because at first I was like, I literally just did research. How can I get this job. Definitely what helped was that I had my own grant during the PhD, so I had a bit of an experience with what you have to do and how do you apply, but also what kind of reporting do you have to do. So this was helpful. That I feel like what is interesting is that also, not only my PhD helped me, but also my podcast work and all the other things that I’ve been doing kind of side, as side tasks during my PhD, you know, all the events that I was involved in, and some science communication situations, because suddenly I really need this aspect as part of my job, and that that’s been very rewarding, so to speak, because, you know, I was doing it kind of on the side, and now it’s helpful for this job. But there is a lot of learning as well involved. And I have a very supportive supervisor who has been, you know, sending me for trainings, and there’s a lot of opportunities for me to learn, also from other people at the Medical University who have been, yeah, helping with my questions. So I am very appreciative of this environment as well.
Sarah McLusky 06:50
Yeah, that’s excellent. It sounds like a really supportive place. And finding, navigating, you know, taking those skills, it can be a real mindset shift, can’t it to sort of go, Well, I’m just doing research, and then to think, but what actually, what skills am I using there? And you know, like you say, there’s communication skills and there’s event management skills and there’s project management skills, is a huge one when you’re doing a PhD. So, yeah, so all those skills that people have got that they don’t necessarily think of in that way, and it’s it’s just a different way of thinking, isn’t it, when you come to apply for a different kind of job.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 07:27
Yes, and I think what is very important is to talk to someone else, because you know, when you try to judge this yourself, you tend to oftentimes underestimate how much you have actually learned and gained through your PhD journey and and it takes long, and it can feel like you fail a lot, but even from these failures, you learn. So hearing this, I needed to hear this actually, externally. So I I actually feel like this is a very important thing to talk to people and try to see okay, I actually did learn a lot and and, you know, achieved a lot, even though it was bumpy. Yeah, so I would say it’s difficult. Also it’s difficult to make a decision that you’re not going to pursue a postdoc. I feel like it requires a certain time, even a grieving period to properly adjust, because I went into the PhD thinking, Okay, I’m doing this. I’m going to be a professor. And when I reached the point where I made the decision to actually step outside, that was a long process. It was not a very easy decision. It felt a little bit like failing at first, which I’m happy to say, it stops feeling like that after a moment. But you need to process this, and it’s important to have people that that support this kind of transitions are surrounding you. You know, career offices that talk about this careers as you know, valid and sensible pathways that are equally important and having this kind of resources as your podcast and, you know, just like hearing it from from the outside is is extremely, extremely important.
Sarah McLusky 09:21
Yeah I think so much of it is about mindset, isn’t it? And it’s about, as you say, it’s almost like a grieving period when you decide that this is, this is not for you, but so many people, I think, I mean again, one of the reasons behind this podcast because I was speaking to a lot of PhD students in my old job who were considering what to do next. You know, they’re coming to the end of their PhD. They might be applying for funding. They might be struggling to find the next job, to get a grant, whatever it is and. But the reality is that only a tiny fraction of PhD students will stay on in academia. I mean, the the numbers vary depending on different subject areas. But it’s, it’s as low as 20% will stay.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 10:07
Absolutely it’s actually an alternative career when, yes, the majority goes outside. Yeah, I know, I know.
Sarah McLusky 10:15
And but when the people, or everybody around you is academics, you think that’s the path, and that, as you say, it’s what you know maybe family and friends expect you to do. So that’s why it can be hard, isn’t it?
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 10:27
Oh, yeah, that definitely was something that was a process for my family to comprehend, because to them, it seems like it’s a very clear path, and they actually think that the job security is very high in academia. They don’t realize how much struggle it entails to secure the funding, or, you know, to actually get tenured, and that it’s just one challenge after the other. So we had a few conversations about that. And what is great is that the visibility of the other science adjacent careers is increasing, and then it’s much easier to refer to, you know, these people that are out there and are doing, let’s say, science communication, and this can be viewed as a career, and, yeah, also making them realize that I actually have skills that translate, not only into doing actual research in the lab. Yeah, so I am definitely happy that you know now they are all on board, and they actually see how much my like I still use my previous experiences, but how much I’m growing in this new job. So, yeah, I think it’s a process that not only involves the researcher, but also the whole surrounding,
Sarah McLusky 11:50
Yeah, whole community isn’t it? Whole community, yeah. So you’ve, you’ve hinted at a couple of things that, as we were talking that I would like to ask you a bit more about you said. You mentioned that you’ve got podcast, and you also mentioned that this sense of some of the things that are wrong in academia, that’s very much what your podcast is, is about, isn’t it? So do you want to tell us a bit about the podcast?
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 12:18
Sure. So the podcast is called Science on Trial and Error. And the idea for it came up during covid Because I felt like I was actually doubting a lot about academia. I had a bit of a disillusionment moment, and I started to realize that not only I’m struggling, but also many people around me is struggling, and everybody feels extremely alone in how they feel, and they are afraid to admit it, because they don’t want to feel like they are failing. And I started talking to some people in my cohort and in my very close surroundings, and in the first season of the podcast, I really focused on talking to people at different levels of academic careers and also in different fields, to ask them what were their journeys, but also to ask them, what do they think can be improved in academia? And this was really great. I feel like it made me realize how, you know how great science is, how great are the people who are doing science? But also it’s it was opening my eyes to a lot of the problems that are out there, and hearing back from the people who have been listening, it made me realize the scale of the problem as well. And now that I transitioned to a non academic career. I felt like what I would like to do this season is to bring more visibility to this beyond academia space, and it’s been great. I feel like it’s been actually much more hopeful than the previous season, because we are I feel like people are recovering when they get out, and there’s a little bit more space to to reflect, but also be more hopeful. And I really like that. So yeah, we are talking about what can be improved to facilitate transitions, and also just really discussing different academic, non academic careers and just the journey and how they came to make the decision very similar to yours, really. But I do feel like there is enough space in this niche to to really talk to many, many people. And yeah, I’m very happy with the second season. So it’s the more is coming. More is coming.
Sarah McLusky 14:46
Yeah we’ll definitely put the link in the show notes and make sure that people can come and find your podcast. And as you say, I think there is, there’s, there’s space to share all these different stories. I mean, our both our podcasts, have got slightly different emphasis. As you say, you’re looking more broadly at non academic careers. I’m looking at ones which are still in the research space, but not necessarily people who ever aspired to be academics, that they’re potentially doing other things. So so there’s that slight difference there. So yeah, so space for people to find those stories that they they find inspiring, and obviously, with your European perspective as well, you we you’ve got guests from all the much more broader geographic or a different geographical area.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 15:28
This season definitely. Yeah, yeah. I’m actually quite surprised, because everyone that I interviewed this season, I’ve never met them before, like in person, so it was a bit more of a jump for me. But it’s been a great experience. Like, really, everybody has been extremely, you know, enthusiastic about joining. This is what I really, really do. Like about the the networking via both scientific Instagram and also the the LinkedIn. It’s, it’s been really interesting to to also see this part of a of academic world.
Sarah McLusky 16:03
Yeah but it’s interesting the way that you talk there about the fact that people who come out of academia, they have this this sort of recovery period, and this process of adjusting that almost just that in itself, says a lot about the some of the challenges that there are right now. Yeah, right, doesn’t it? The way that it feels like something you have to kind of escape from?
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 16:30
Yeah, I think so. And I think I don’t know whether I mean, for some people, yes, I would call it an escape, maybe even for myself, I feel like for some people, it’s more about even regaining a bit of confidence, because academia can bring you down. You get so many rejections, you know, like the papers are not accepted, you don’t get the funding. There’s so much competition as well. So it can really feel like you are failing more than you are succeeding, and this can bring even the most enthusiastic, science passionate person down. And I feel like, once you get out and there’s so so many opportunities and options, and actually all of these experiences have value, and you are actually very valued on job market. This can help to bring you back up. And, you know, you you get back on your feet, and you feel like you can again conquer the world. It’s, I think it’s part, partially, this feeling. And another thing is that once you get out of the, you know, a little bit toxic sometimes academic environment, you really start seeing how different life can be. And that’s another thing that people have been mentioning, the work life balance. Unfortunately, in typical academic pathway can be very skewed, and then when you go into a job that is more regulated, you suddenly start feeling like there actually is a bit of more of a balance, and you can enjoy the other aspects of your life. And I think that has been also something that keeps coming up with all of my guests
Sarah McLusky 18:17
Yeah and definitely something I’ve seen reflected in people that I’ve spoken to as well. So, yeah well, just to move on with the conversation, I mean, perhaps these, these things will will overlap, but I always like to ask my guests about some things they’ve done that they’re proud of. Perhaps the podcast is one of them, but, yeah, do tell us if there’s that or other examples.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 18:45
I am proud of the podcast. Certainly, it’s been an exciting journey and a lot of surprising opportunities came out of it, which I am extremely, extremely proud of and happy of. I am also always very happy to do any form of science communication. So you know, all these kind of public outreach events. Recently, I was involved in the long night of research at the Medical University, and this has been absolutely amazing. And I’m always very happy when you know we can first come up with the project, and then you see actual people coming and asking questions, and especially the kids, when they get involved into something that you came up with. It’s just very rewarding. So I’m definitely proud of this as well. Recently, mostly I’m just proud of seeing myself grow. I really have achieved so much in less than a year in this new job. Also, I had time to study German. I’ve been improving my language skills. So there’s been many, many things that are non career related also that have been happening. And I’m just very, very happy. And proud of of this progress.
Sarah McLusky 20:02
Yeah that is fantastic. Yeah, sometimes it is. Sometimes it’s hard to point at a particular thing and say that’s thing I’m proud of. It’s more just who, who you are as a person, that and how far you’ve come. And that’s a lovely way to think about it. Um, so I do like to ask my guests, if they had a magic wand, what would they change about the world that they work in? I wonder. This is obviously something broadly that you’ve thought about, I guess maybe not in the context of a magic wand, but you’ve definitely thought about what you would like to change.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 20:35
We don’t have that much time. I honestly would really like to remove the toxic aspect of the academia. And I know that this is extremely layered problem that comes out of all of the ways in which, you know, there is pressure that is being laid on people, but I would really like to see an academic system that is healthier for people that are in it, that doesn’t damage mental health. So you know, I know that we are trying to provide the support now that people are realizing how bad it is, but it really requires systemic change. So I guess if I had the magic wand, I would do it, because this would speed up the process and and certainly help to alleviate so many things that are wrong on many different levels. So I don’t know if that satisfies you, but that would definitely be the magic that I would like to do.
Sarah McLusky 21:34
I think it’s definitely a very worthwhile aim. Yeah, it to do that. Are there any things that you’ve particularly noticed that you think we could just change, like, if we could just do this thing differently, that would make a big difference.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 21:53
I think one of the aspects that always bothers me a lot is that there’s this very vicious circle that perpetuates the toxicity in academia, and this comes actually a lot from the ego aspect of it, because, you know, when you’re a scientist, oftentimes you are very ambitious person. Otherwise you would not have the power to really go through all the failures. But the bad aspect of it is that your ego is there, and then when you go for something difficult and you still succeed, you should just think, okay, I had a very tough time. I would like to fix it for other people. Whereas a lot of people think from the ego aspect, they think, Oh, I managed to go through it because I’m the best. If someone is also good, they also have to go through fire. And I really don’t like this, and I feel like this would could be improved with much more pressure on the management and leadership skills in you know that are kind of requested from the prospective principal investigators of professors, because, you know, there’s, of course, the academic credit that you get, and like all of the papers and publications and the funding, but if we could put more, also a more supervision on this, and have A bit more pressure that people really learn or they have also these skills, this would be definitely a big improvement on so many layers, because this can damage people who work for them. This can get people to quit. This can just make the whole research environment very toxic. So I would put pressure on this. And of course, more you know, equal distribution on of gender representation would be great. I know that there, there are some movements, but academia is still very antiquated, and we just need to shake the dust off and kind of start progressing a little bit faster into, well, yeah, into the new century, because I feel like oftentimes they’re still in the previous one so
Sarah McLusky 24:11
Or the one before that.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 24:12
yeah, exactly. Just very shameful. So I would, I would put pressure on these two issues that are very close to my heart.
Sarah McLusky 24:20
Yeah, yeah. Definitely, it resonates with things that I’ve seen and heard and, yeah, and, and I think the fact that we’re talking about it is great, but as I’m sure you would agree, it’s starting to feel like talking isn’t actually changing very much. We need things to actually change.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 24:45
Yes I mean, there are initiatives that, you know, it’s great to see them, that are trying to, you know, do research, improve the visibility of certain very statistical aspects of how bad things are. And I think this is great. We. Because this can pressure even the politicians to make certain changes about funding, and, you know, like increasing the salary of PhD students throughout the world. Because this has been also an issue in many countries. Austria is quite fortunate with this respect, but I know that it’s a problem in many other regions, and ,yeah, still to make a change, you need people who who will either want to stay and try to fight for the change or do it from outside, but staying fairly adjacent to the academic culture. And it can be extremely hard. It’s it’s very disheartening to fight, fight, fight and then see no result. I agree with that.
Sarah McLusky 25:41
Yeah, well, maybe on the on the trajectory that you’re on now, the path you’re on now, you might find yourself in positions where you can help with some of that change, as you see, if you’re involved with things like recruitment and communication
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 25:56
I’m very proud of that. Actually, we did a completely blinded recruitment for our consortium. And we blinded, you know, for gender, name and country of origin and also age. And we had more than 400 applications for our 10 positions. So it was really a large pool of candidates. And through this blinded recruitment, the majority of hired researchers are females. So I feel like, you know, it took a lot of effort to do it in this way, but it was very rewarding to see that actually we were able. Our goal was 50:50, at least, because we really wanted to support the equal balance between gender representation in the consortium, and it ended up being eight to two. So really surprising, but very Yeah, also kind of proud moment for us. I also feel like I have an opportunity to be a mentor now a bit more, and I really appreciate this. I know that this can be quite hard sometimes, but it’s also very rewarding to help people in their journeys, and, you know, provide advice or maybe guide them to talk to someone else. But I really like this aspect of my job as well
Sarah McLusky 25:57
Yeah, that’s really interesting. And I think that one of the messages, yeah, that I really want to share is that we’re always looking to the whole system, looks to the academics to make the change, but the people who are in the research adjacent roles have a big we both. We’ve got an opportunity to just change things, you know, like you say, just change a recruitment process. You’ve not been in your job that long, and that’s something you’ve been able to do better. You know, we all have something that’s within our area of control that we can actually do to make a change, make a positive change, yeah,
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 27:55
Absolutely.
Sarah McLusky 27:56
Excellent Well, I think that we have just about come to the end of our time. So thank you so much for coming along and joining us. Would you like to tell people we’re about they can find you if they’d like to get in touch or find out more about the podcast or anything else that you do.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 28:12
Certainly. So thank you so much for invitation. First of all, you can find me on LinkedIn, both me as a person. You can reach out through the DM. I’m always happy to chat, but also through the podcasts page on the on LinkedIn, the podcast is available on all major podcasting platforms, Spotify, also YouTube, and we also have Instagram, where there are some behind the scenes. And yeah, just message on any of these, and I’m always happy to chat and always happy to to support.
Sarah McLusky 28:46
Fantastic. I will put all those links in the show notes that people can find you. Thank you so much. It’s been lovely to meet you.
Kasia Kuzmicz-Kowalska 28:53
Thank you, Sarah. It’s been lovely to meet you too.
Sarah McLusky 29:00
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent. If you’re listening in a podcast app, please check your subscribed and then use the links in the episode description to find full show notes and follow the podcast on LinkedIn or Instagram. You can also find all the links and other episodes at www.researchadjacent.com. Research Adjacent is presented and produced by Sarah McLusky, and the theme music is by Lemon Music Studios on Pixabay. And you Yes, you get a big gold star for listening right to the end, see you next time you.
