David Wright, Exhibition Curator (Episode 54) | David brings research to life through exhibitions
For this episode of the Research Adjacent podcast Sarah is talking to David Wright. David is an Assistant Curator at Durham University where he creates research-based exhibitions for university-owned galleries including Durham Castle, Palace Green Library and the Oriental Museum.
Connecting visitors to research
He has been at Durham University for 8 years now, working on a wide range of projects from folklore to football fans. He sees himself as a filter between the research and the visitors, helping to find the stories and objects which will connect with audiences.
“You need to give those people a reason to care. You need to give them something to be interested about, something to be excited about. Often it’s trying to find personal connections or areas that would have like a particular contemporary relevance to people.”
A recent challenge was finding a way to humanise the life of Cuthbert Tunstall, a wealthy and influential Prince Bishop who lived at Durham Castle in the Tudor Era. David’s way in was through Cuthbert’s personal correspondence with his friends, sharing gossip and funny stories.
“We did a really nice feature in the exhibition, turning some of Cuthbert’s correspondence into a kind of like WhatsApp instant messenger animation with messages going back and forth between him and some of his friends.”
Other memorable exhibitions include Between Worlds: Folklore and Fairy Tales from Northern Britain and Catch Your Breath (which David and I worked on together). Catch Your Breath was based on the Life of Breath medical humanities research project which I managed. For this exhibition we commissioned some new artist commissions and included a space in the gallery for workshops and events.
“I do still feel that was a project that that really allowed us to do lots of different things and provide lots of different types of experiences. Some of it was more traditional, historic objects in showcases, but a lot of it was a much more about visitor experience and participation.”
People-watching and projects
David left university with a history degree and experience of volunteering at Manchester University Museum, but no clear plan. Looking back, his journey into curation started with a visitor services job at the Baltic art gallery in Gateshead which involved a lot of people-watching.
“I spent literally 1000s of hours in galleries, watching visitors, seeing how they engage with exhibition spaces, what makes them comfortable or uncomfortable, how much time they spend in exhibition spaces. And definitely didn’t realize that at the time, but looking back that that really was my curatorial training.”
Having continued museum volunteering during this time he was then able to move into a series of ‘everything’ jobs working as a project officer for cultural organisations before landing the role at Durham. At the time jumping from one short contract to the next was challenging, but he says it was ultimately beneficial.
“With hindsight it is actually quite useful being forced to move on, forced to get a job somewhere else. You get different types of experiences at all the different organisations that you work at. And it’s a massive confidence boost to do an application or go into an interview and actually realise all the skills and experiences that you have and realise how employable you are.”
Making museums more sustainable
Although David has landed on his feet, staffing and job security are still a huge challenge in the museums sector with the people who are employed often working to hard.
“We’re not lacking good ideas in this sector, but what we are lacking sometimes is the resource to actually deliver them or deliver them in the best way. I think most museums and galleries are really understaffed, but they have teams of really passionate and dedicated people and and that can be quite dangerous. People can end up doing way too much.”
Experience first
That said he would love to see the sector become a bit more creative and radical, drawing on some of the ways artists in residence currently contribute.
“It’s almost like the job of the exhibition curator to build a solid foundation, and then someone else can come in to do a really interesting, creative thing on top. So I’m like, what if we just skip the point of building that foundation, and get to the really interesting bit straight away. What would that mean? What would happen?”
Find out more
- Connect with David via LinkedIn or the Durham University website
- Explore his online exhibitions including Catch Your Breath, Tunstall and the Tudors and Between Worlds.
Theme music by Lemon Music Studios from Pixabay
Episode Transcript
David Wright 00:00
This word has a different meaning in this context. It’s like, it’s like research with a with a capital R. Literally 1000s of hours in galleries, watching visitors, seeing how they engage with exhibition spaces. And yeah, definitely didn’t realize that at the time, but looking back, that really was my curatorial training. We’re not lacking good ideas in this sector, but what we are lacking sometimes is the resource to actually deliver them.
Sarah McLusky 00:31
Hello there. I’m Sarah McLusky, and this is Research Adjacent. Each episode I talk to amazing research adjacent professionals about what they do and why it makes a difference. Keep listening to find out why we think the research adjacent space is where the real magic happens. Hello there, and welcome to episode 54, of the Research Adjacent Podcast. Today, I’m talking to David Wright, who is an exhibition curator at Durham University. David and I worked together a few years ago to create Catch Your Breath, an exhibition based on the Life of Breath, medical humanities research project. This exhibition remains one of my own career highlights, so I really encourage you to go and look at the photos in the show notes or visit the online exhibition. Although I’ve had some experience working with museums. Until I met David, I had no idea that some universities employed their own curators to work specifically with academics to bring the research to life. It’s a whole new research-adjacent career angle, as you’ll hear. It’s something that took David a while to get his head around, too, particularly the difference between the research that museum professionals do every day and what he calls ‘research with a capital R’. We also talk about some of his favorite exhibitions, his on the job training, and why he thinks about exhibitions more as experiences than educational tools. Listen on to hear David’s story. Welcome along to the podcast. David. Lovely to see you again. It’s been a while, so I wonder if we could begin by just hearing a bit about what it is that you do.
David Wright 02:07
Yeah thanks, Sarah. So I’m David from the museums, galleries and exhibitions team at Durham University. I’m an exhibition curator, so I work on exhibitions and public programming across all of the university venues. So that’s including Durham Castle, Palace Green Library, the Oriental Museum, and I also manage our programme of online exhibitions. So I sometimes call myself a skills-based curator. So I’m, I’m not a subject specialist. I’m not an expert in any particular type of collection. And my expertise is really more general and transferable. It’s, it’s about visitor experience, about storytelling. And to be honest, that is the thing that I love about my job. It means I’m working with all different subjects. The job is super varied. Next year, I’m doing a project about Shakespeare and a project about women football fans. So totally different subject matters. I’m often working in collaboration with academic experts or collection curators, and try to think of myself as like the filter between them and our visitors. Most of our visitors aren’t subject specialists. They’re not experts, and you kind of you need to give those people a reason to care. You need to give them something to be interested about, something to be excited about. And, yeah, that’s what I see as the the key part of my job, really.
Sarah McLusky 03:51
Yeah I can definitely see that that comes up a lot in kind of the science communication or research communication world, is, you know, how do you make the audience care about the subject matter? That it is. What are some of the ways that you feel that you do that?
David Wright 04:09
Yeah, I mean, often it’s, it’s trying to find personal connections or areas that would have, like a particular contemporary relevance to people. There’s a project I’ve worked on in the last couple of years that was about Cuthbert Tunstall, who was one of the Prince Bishops of Durham, who lived at Durham Castle. And you know, he was alive in 1400s and the in the 1500s and it was for someone in that time period quite like a privileged person, so potentially, someone who had a life that was not that relatable for people so we worked really hard in that project to like, focus on him as a real person, not just kind of a historic figure in kind of more abstract sense, we like we thought really deeply about his friendships, his relationships, the kind of emotions and feelings that he might have had when he was making particular decisions. We were quite lucky that there’s quite a lot of his correspondence that survives with him writing to some of his friends, and it’s just so interesting to see, like the warmth and affection that the friends had for each other, or times where they would complain a bit, or gossip, share funny stories. And it was really, it was that side of him that we really tried to convey to people, and then through that, get them to see this period of history in Tudor England, like through one person’s eyes, the eyesof someone who was there, and what that would have felt like, challenges that he faced?
Sarah McLusky 06:06
Yeah that’s a really nice example, because, as you say, like something like the other you mentioned, you’ve got another project coming up on football, and that’s really easy to find those connections into contemporary life. But I totally get it, I’ve worked with young people and they’d be like, Well, what some kind of rich dude from like, 700 years ago? Why should I care about that? So, yeah, humanizing, it makes a lot of sense.
David Wright 06:32
Yeah, totally. And I, I found myself, like, actually starting to really, like relate myself and like engage more when, when we started taking this approach, which is just quite useful for me as an exhibition curator, to get really into the subject matter and and start to feel passionate about it. We did a really nice like feature in the exhibition where we turned some of Cuthbert correspondence, like, some of his letters into a kind of, like WhatsApp, instant messenger animation with kind of like messages going back and forth between him and some of his friends and like, I found myself, like, getting getting, like, really jealous that they are so friendly and kind to each other. Like, oh, my, none of my friends ever say anything as nice as this to me. As soon as I arrive in Brussels, I’m going to jump on my horse and meet you for a drink and all this, it was just like, really sweet and really nice. And, yeah, totally I think sometimes when we think about, like big periods of history, like bigmilestones we do, it is really easy to forget those human aspects and the personal stories as well. So just really trying to bring those through.
Sarah McLusky 07:57
Yeah and also, because I think definitely a lot of that stuff is the kind of thing that’s that’s almost lost, isn’t it? You, you the stuff that’s recorded particularly a long time ago, I think current history will be, I don’t know what historians of the future will make of where we are now, but, but the sorts of things that was recorded 100 years ago isn’t that day to day kind of minutiae of life, and often that’s the thing we can really connect to. So you mentioned there that you work a lot with academics, and as I say, that’s that’s really what this podcast all about, is people who do jobs which are in some way connected to the research. So tell us a bit more about how you work in collaboration with researchers to put the exhibitions together.
David Wright 08:37
Yeah, sure. I mean, I’ve worked at Durham University for eight years now, I feel like I’m finally starting to actually understand what research means in the in the university context. I was going to the university from other types of organizations, so museums and galleries, and when we would talk about research in those institutions, that was just something that that everyone did as part of their job. Really, I think it was only spending time at the University starting to understand that this word has a different meaning in this context. It’s like, it’s like research with a with a capital R, or something like that, and how important it is for the reputation of the institution, and the way it can, you know, bring money into the institution. Often, I mean, it can work in a couple of ways. Sometimes academics or departments or research projects will approach us as a team, and that might be because they have some specific funding for a public engagement strand of their research, or they’ve worked on a really interesting project that they want to push out and reach a wider audience. Sometimes within the team, we’re a bit more proactive. If we see things going on in the university that have a strong link to our collections, or perhaps we just think, okay, that could be a really good fit for our audiences, we might approach academics directly and see if they want to work together. So for example, the project that I’ll be I’m working on at the moment, there’ll be an exhibition launching next year that’s about histories of women football fans in North East England. That was one that we saw as a team, we saw the research that was going on, and thought we can actually really help reach more people. We we kind of have the right connections to the type of audiences who will be really interested in that. You know, it’s about football. A lot of the audiences we’re going to try and reach aren’t the type of people who would read an academic paper or or buy an academic book or anything like that, we’re looking for different ways to to connect with those people. I think often, often we can help as a team to actually provide a platform for academics to kind of test some ideas in their research or or pose questions and and try and build responses and build feedback. So within this project, quite a lot of the academic recommendations are around match day experiences for football fans today, and what could be done to to change those experiences for women who are attending football and my plan is to do this series of pop up exhibitions that are like in and around football matches and actually talking to people directly. And this is kind of like, I would say, is sort of a form of frontline research, probably way less formal, I would imagine, than, than how a lot of academic research takes place. But I think still could be really valuable and really interesting. It’s really interesting to think of it there, because people often think exhibitions as being that’s like, the finish line, you know, you do the research and then you put it in the exhibition. That is the end. So it’s like, we’re we’re telling you about what we found out. But I really love that idea of then continuing to use the the exhibition to open up those conversations and keep the research going. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think broadly speaking, that really aligns with sort of like best practice in the museum sector as a whole. It really is about, how can you activate exhibition spaces and and make them not just a static thing, make them a place where where things happen at central point around which all different types of activity can happen The project that we worked on together many years ago now, Sarah, the Catch your Breath project, I think that was the crucial thing for that exhibition really was building in that engagement space into the gallery itself and all the different types of events and activities you could do there. And I do think that is quite meaningful to say, you know, the engagement and the audience participation isn’t something that’s going to be pushed into a side room, and that happens over there, and then the exhibitions here. Bringing those two things together, I think, is quite important. And as I say, that’s what that keeps an exhibition alive. I don’t like exhibitions or projects that feel really static and flat, yeah. Like things to have a bit of, yeah, a bit of life to them.
Sarah McLusky 14:03
Yeah excellent. Oh, well, I’ll definitely put links to some of these exhibitions you’re talking about in the show notes. But yeah, especially, I will give a plug to the exhibition that we worked on together Catch Your Breath. So do there’s some very, very beautiful photographs of it out there. So yeah, do go and check those out. If you haven’t done so you’ve said there you’ve been at Durham now for eight years. Tell us a bit about your journey. How did, how did you end up at Durham? What did you do before that?
David Wright 14:29
So I did a history degree in Manchester. I wouldn’t say I was particularly, like, career focused when I was at university. I didn’t really have, like, any big plans for what I wanted to do with my life. There was probably some clues in my childhood that I’d end up working in museums like I’d always loved, collecting things and arranging things very neatly in my bedroom, these very curatorial instincts I think, but yeah, it was only in my final year at university I started volunteering at the at the Manchester Museum. A brilliant Museum, part of Manchester University. I remember considering an MA in museum studies or something like that. But yeah, to be honest, by the end of final year, I was just, I really felt finished with studying. I was like, sick of exams and essays. I’ve done my dissertation. It’s like, I I want to do something different. So when I graduated, I carried on doing a bit more volunteering work, working with museum collections, but I also started working in a visitor services job atBaltic, big contemporary art gallery on Newcastle Gateshead Quayside. So I was working there, sort of giving tours, talking to visitors about the exhibitions. But a lot of the time it really was, you know, very typical view of working in a contemporary art gallery. It was sitting there a bit like security, making sure nothing goes wrong. And I worked in this job for about two years so literally, spent hundreds of 1000s of hours in galleries, watching visitors, seeing how they engage with exhibition spaces, what makes them comfortable or uncomfortable, how much time people spend in exhibition spaces and yeah, definitely didn’t realize that at the time, but looking back that that really was my curatorial training, I think. And I think about it, and I reflect on it all the time when planning exhibitions now, when thinking about how we might lay out a gallery, how we’ll space, things in the exhibition space, what types of content to include. I’ve got this memory log of all that time sat in those galleries. And this is experience that that I draw on quite often.
Sarah McLusky 16:44
That’s really interesting. But, yeah, it does. It makes a lot of sense that if you take that opportunity, rather than just like, Oh, I’m sat there, like, say, I’ve seen the people in the galleries. They’re pretty much like security. I’ve done sort of similar kind of jobs myself, but to actually almost use that as anthropological research, you know, like looking at people, how they interact with things, what they how they move around the gallery, is really fantastic way to make sense of that experience and make it useful in the future. So, so, yeah, after Baltic, then what? How did you did you then go straight to the job at Durham? Or did you do other things in between?
David Wright 17:48
Yeah so between Baltic and Durham, like I said, I’d been doing some additional volunteer work with museum collections. I think was the combination of these two experiences that I could be successful in applying for roles that were outside of visitor services. So I started doing they were like project officer jobs. So I worked at Seven Stories, which is a museum of children’s books and literature. I worked at Discovery Museum, science and technology museum in Newcastle. I worked for Great North Run culture. So yeah, who do art programming around the Great North Run and those roles, I call them like they’re like everything jobs, they’ve got external funding connected to them, and it’s like, you’re working on a project for a year or a year and a half, and you’ve got all of these different outputs to deliver the roles that I worked In this was including exhibitions, events, learning and engagement programs. And to be honest, they were great for just building loads of different skills and actually finding out what I liked doing for one thing, but but finding out what I was good at as well. And it was through those roles that began to specialize more in in exhibition curating, that that’s really what suited my skills best. Always find organizing one off event really stressful because there’s so much pressure. It’s like, you spend a lot of time organizing something, and then what if no one turns up, and that’s it, it’s just done. Whereas exhibitions, I don’t know, I think I appreciate that longer thought process and longer running time of them. And it was, yeah, combining all of those different skills and experiences that that led to my role at the university, with which really is much more exhibition focused, that that’s the core part of my job now.
Sarah McLusky 20:05
Yeah, yeah. Oh, that makes, makes a lot of sense at that journey and how you’ve ended up where you are now, and and great to feel that you’ve been able to find a place where your the skills you’ve got are a good fit for the work that you’re doing, which guess must be she’s been there for a while. So as you said, You’ve been there for a while. You’ve worked on lots of different exhibitions, both at Durham and also in other jobs. Maybe there’s a couple that really stand out that you would like to tell us about.
David Wright 20:35
Yes, probably.
Sarah McLusky 20:37
I know it’s hard. It must be hard to kind of almost feel like you pick in favorites from between your children, but
David Wright 20:42
Yeah, think thinking about my time at Durham University, the first project that I worked on as as lead curator was an exhibition called Between Worlds, which was about folklore and fairy tales from from Northern Britain. That was a collaboration with three different academics, I think, who all had an interest in this area. And that was a useful project for me, because I found at the time, moving from the organization, organizations that I’d been at to Durham, the the standard of delivery and the attention to detail that was required was was so much greater. I was working alongside colleagues who were very experienced, really skilled, and I think with that, had really high expectations and could be quite demanding. Before working at Durham, I think I was probably a bit more relaxed in my curatorial style, and I’m kind of just like this in my day to day life, really, I’ll plan things up to a point, and then it’ll get to it, I’ll think, Oh, it’ll probably just be fine. Let’s just see how let’s just see how it goes. And I found the expectation at Durham that that style didn’t really gel so well, so I became much better at planning things very closely before we came to the installation period, I would know exactly where everything was going to go in the showcases, and thought carefully about all these different things around exhibition layout, where you would introduce graphics or visual elements, where the the pinch points would be in the gallery, where might things might get overcrowded. Where do we need to build in a bit more space? So that was that was just a really, really great learning curve working on that first project that I felt by the time we got to the Catch Your Breath project that we worked on, I’d been at the University for almost a couple of years at that point, and I felt like I had a much better understanding of these ways of working, the the expectations, and then that gave me a bit more freedom. I suppose that that that I understand these kind of like fundamental concerns. How can I push that and then start to be a bit more creative, and doing some really interesting things with the layout of that one, like, I say, building in the engagement space. We did some really great artist commissions as as part of that, different things, gallery interactives, I felt like, and I do still feel that was a project that that really allowed us to do lots of different things and provide lots of different types of experiences. But for visitors, some of it was more traditional, historic objects in showcases that we interpreted, but a lot of it was much more about visitor experience and participation.
Sarah McLusky 24:07
Yeah, yeah, excellent. And I do I remember that Between Worlds one as well. So yeah, again, does that? Are there pictures or things of that somewhere around that we can maybe get and put in the show notes?
David Wright 24:19
Yeah. So Between Worlds, I believe the blog is still active, which gives a really good overview of the different things, the different themes in the exhibition. And Catch Your Breath, has a nice online exhibition that we created as a legacy for that.
Sarah McLusky 24:36
Yeah, yeah, it does, yeah. So no. So we’ll need to get all of those things and pop them in the show notes. People can go and have a look if they’re interested. So along the way, I mean, as we’ve been going through, you have talked a bit about some of the challenges that you’ve had, both in terms of the kind of putting together the exhibitions. Are there any things that have been just and you’re you know how you figured out the best path that you wanted to take. Are there any other particular things that have been challenging along your career journey?
David Wright 25:08
Yeah, so I think early on in my career, for sure, job uncertainty is just something that is so common in museums, I got my first permanent contract eight years after I graduated university. It sounds like a long time, and then I talk to people and they’re like you’re doing pretty well there actually. When I talk to students or or young people about museum career careers, I always say, like it is the type of thing that will make your parents a bit nervous. So my older sister works in banking, which, which is an industry where you can get onto a graduate scheme. You can work your way up. There’s a career path laid out. You can start to make money quite quickly, and and museums are not like that at all. The the first project job that I did at Seven Stories was all about picture book illustration, and I loved it so much, and I worked on that project for a year. I felt like I was doing really good work. I really didn’t want it to end, but there wasn’t a way to extend the funding and extend the project. So that was it. And I was gutted, but I think with hindsight, going through that experience, it is actually quite useful, being forced to move on, forced to get a job somewhere else. It’s you get different types of experiences at all the different organizations that you work at. And I’m really glad, actually, that although I’ve been at the University for a long time now, I still have these four or five different places that I’ve worked, and I can draw on those experiences. Think about what worked well and what didn’t work well in different places and and it is actually, it’s a massive confidence boost, I think, to to do an application or go into an interview and actually realize all the skills and experiences that you have and realize how employable you are. I think after having that first job at Seven Stories and then losing that and getting a new one quite quickly, I never really felt nervous again after that, because it did make me see I am actually quite good at this. I do know what I’m doing, and it’s seeing other people recognize that as well. But yeah, I always think now if something went wrong at the university, and I needed to find somewhere else to work. I have all of this experience that I can draw on, that that makes me feel confident.
Sarah McLusky 28:08
Yeah that’s a really positive message to take away because, I mean, I think your experience, as you say, really common, both in the early part of your career. I think it’s really common just to, like you say, do short contracts, different jobs, get experience, build it up, try and figure out what, what you’re good at. But then also just take, as you say, that, that confidence boost of of knowing, you know, yeah, I can do this. It’s like every time you go for a job application, you do an interview, you know, treat taking. I often say to people, just, can you make it more about being curious or being, you know, just explore the process and see what you can learn from it, rather than, like the be all and end all, kind of defining you as a person just from this one job interview. So, yeah, if you can kind of use that confidence boost, take that, that just a little bit of a lighter approach to it. I think it’s can be, it can be transformational. And, yeah, I think people do better in job interviews when they go in with that kind of attitude as well. So yeah, really positive way to turn that experience around. Um, so I do like to ask all my guests to come on the podcast that if they had a magic wand, what is something that they would like to change about the world that they work in? What would you like to use your magic wand for?
David Wright 29:28
Good question? I, I feel like I’m torn between a safe answer and one that’s more fun.
Sarah McLusky 29:35
You can give us both. Yeah.
David Wright 29:38
I, I really Yeah. My my safe answer would be around staffing and job security. All the people that I’ve worked with over the years in this sector, I think the thing that they all have in common is we all have, like, brilliant ideas. We’re we’re not lacking good ideas in this sector, but. What we are lacking sometimes is the resource to actually deliver them or deliver them in the best way. I think most organizations, most museums and galleries, I should say, are really understaffed, but they have teams of really passionate and dedicated people and and that can be quite dangerous, and people can end up doing way too much. Run the risk of being burnt out, like when I think about my job working in exhibitions, is this constant carousel of of different projects you’re always on to the next thing. You’re always in delivery mode. You don’t always get the time to pause and reflect. So I think, yeah, with my magic wand, it would be thinking about, how do we actually have a bit of a culture shift where we can do less, but make sure everything that we do has a real and important purpose behind it.
Sarah McLusky 31:03
Yeah and I think that’s, yeah go for it. No. What’s the fun one as well? Come on.
David Wright 31:08
Yeah. So I think my more fun answer is, is much more about risk taking within exhibitions, and how do we allow museum curators to be a bit more radical in their approach. Maybe I think shifting thinking about exhibitions more as experiences rather than educational tools, is something I’m quite interested in. And sometimes I think about this comparison between an exhibition curator and an artist in residence. And I’ve had experiences of of working with artists in residence on projects, and I look at what they’re doing, and I think that’s not fair. If I tried to do that I’d get told no, and it’s almost like the job of the exhibition theory, for instance, to build that solid core foundation, and then someone else can come in and really interesting creative thing on top. So I’m like, what if we just skipped the point of building that foundation and went to the really interesting bit straight away? What would that mean? What would happen? And it might be a, might be a really bad idea. That’s why it’s a magic wand question.
Sarah McLusky 32:27
Well, you could have played that’s exactly if you had a magic wand, you could play around with it a bit. If it didn’t work, you just magic it all back to how it was before. So yes, that sounds like a good plan. I mean, certainly it does sound like previous people I’ve interviewed and and my own experience from the museum world, I think all of that job precarity and lack of funding and things is a really common problem. So yeah, definitely something that’s that’s come up before. But yeah, I love your idea of making it all a little bit fun. Okay, I think we should think about wrapping up our conversation. So thank you so much for coming along and telling us about about your job and your career. If people want to get in touch with you or find out more about the work they do, where would you send them?
David Wright 33:11
Yeah, so I have a LinkedIn I’m not the best at updating it. Think I’m more of a LinkedIn Lurker, so I just update whenever I finish a project I don’t really post very much. I think the best way to keep track of things that I’m working on and launching probably to go to our online exhibition homepage for the university, which is stories.durham.ac.uk/online-exhibitions.
Sarah McLusky 33:42
Excellent. Well, I’ll get that and a link and put it in the show notes so it’s easier to click into and find Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much. It’s been really nice see you, gainer, to hear all about what you’ve been up to. So thanks for coming on.
David Wright 33:55
Thanks Sarah,
Sarah McLusky 33:59
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent. If you’re listening in a podcast app, please check your subscribed and then use the links in the episode description to find full show notes and to follow the podcast on LinkedIn or Instagram. You can also find all the links and other episodes at www.researchadjacent.com. Research Adjacent is presented and produced by Sarah McLusky, and the theme music is by Lemon Music Studios on Pixabay. And you, yes you, get a big gold star for listening right to the end, see you next time.
