Rosalind Gill, Policy Director (Episode 66) | Rosalind brings people together to influence policy
For this episode of the Research Adjacent podcast Sarah is talking to Rosalind Gill. Rosalind is currently Head of Policy and Engagement at the National Centre for Universities and Businesses (NCUB). NCUB is all about connecting universities, businesses and government. Rosalind’s role brings people together to create evidence-based recommendations which align with or respond to government priorities.
Unlike many of podcast guests, Rosalind’s career has been quite straightforward. Even at school she aspired to do work which would influence public policy. That aspiration led her into various roles working both in and on behalf of universities.
Sarah and Rosalind talk about
- bringing people together to respond to big sector challenges
- the realities of working in the sometimes-volatile political realm
- the huge contribution universities make to the UK economy
- why changing how people think often has more impact than any individual policy
Find out more
- Find out more about NCUB their website or LinkedIn or X
Theme music by Lemon Music Studios from Pixabay
Episode Transcript
Rosalind Gill 00:01
You can have the best evidence base to support your policy recommendation in the world, but if it doesn’t have the support and the backing of those who are actually going to be delivering it, it’s very unlikely to get traction, and it’s very unlikely to be successful. I think some of my proudest achievements are actually more about where we’ve achieved a change in perspective, because that has a very enduring impact.
Sarah McLusky 00:25
Hello there. I’m Sarah McLusky, and this is Research Adjacent. Each episode, I talk to amazing research adjacent professionals about what they do and why it makes a difference. Keep listening to find out why we think the research adjacent space is where the real magic happens.
Sarah McLusky 00:47
Hello and a warm welcome to Research Adjacent from me, your host, Sarah McLusky. Although I really hope you enjoyed the last four topic based episodes, today, we return to the classic career stories podcast format, and my guest Rosalind Gill has a job role that has been on my wish list for quite a while. That’s because Rosalind works in policy. She is currently head of policy and engagement at the National Centre for Universities and Businesses, also known as NCUB. As the name suggests NCUB is all about connecting universities and businesses with government. Rosalind’s role brings people together to create evidence based recommendations which align with government priorities. Rosalind is unusual among my guests in that her career has been quite straightforward. Since her school days in the Netherlands she has wanted to do work which gave her opportunities to influence public policy, and she has done exactly that various roles working both in and on behalf of universities. In our conversation, we talk about bringing people together to respond to big sector challenges, the realities of working in the sometimes volatile political realm, the huge contribution that universities make to the UK economy, and why changing how people think often has more impact than any individual policy. Listen on to hear Rosalind story.
Sarah McLusky 02:06
Welcome along to the podcast Rosalind, lovely to have you here. I wonder if we could begin our conversation by hearing a bit about what it is that you do.
Rosalind Gill 02:13
Of course. And thank you very much for the invite. Sarah, so I work for the National Centre for Universities and Business, which is an organization that is focused on improving the conditions for universities and businesses to work together to drive positive change through research which was relevant to this podcast, but also through more broadly, kind of skills and talent and other forms of collaboration around sort of local regeneration and those sorts of areas too. So my role, in particular, is responsible for all areas of policy, research and evidence, but also I work on engagement which is really important for actually driving impact through some of the research that we do. So the engagement might be with universities and businesses to understand what sorts of barriers they were experiencing to their collaboration, what their biggest challenges might be, or the biggest opportunities that they see on the horizon. But importantly, engagement can also mean engagement with politicians to ensure that the proposals that we make are brought into reality, or engagement that’s around telling the story of how important research innovation and all the wider activities that universities and businesses do together, how they really matter. So that’s a bit about NCUB, and a bit about my role within it.
Sarah McLusky 03:29
Yeah that’s really interesting. Thank you. And I mean, that’s quite a big role you say there, but NCUB is quite a small organization, isn’t it?
Rosalind Gill 03:39
Yeah we’re about 20 people, but we that’s our core. That’s the that’s the center and but the way that we’re able to work across quite a strong breadth is because we work in partnership with a lot of others. So in the research and the policy work that we do, we actually often work in partnership with academics, with sometimes with consultancies as well. So that’s quite an important part of our model. But also, we would view the universities and businesses that we work with as part of our extended network. They provide the insights and the knowledge that are essential for us to develop recommendations to government that are practical and will actually make a positive difference. So we are quite small in terms of our core, but I’d say that we’re bigger in terms of the wider network that we operate in.
Sarah McLusky 04:25
Yeah, and it’s interesting, when you talk about that network that that you use that term engagement. And I think a lot of people listening to this podcast will probably think of the term engagement as meaning around like public engagement, and, you know, public involvement with research and things like that. But as you say, engagement means a whole host of different things, doesn’t it?
Rosalind Gill 04:44
Yeah, I definitely couldn’t agree more with that. And for us, it’s, it’s definitely a very multifaceted thing. And it’s, it’s not that unusual for a policy organization to have a sort of policy and research team over there and a communications and public affairs team on the other side of the of the desks. And I think for us, what’s always been very important is to take that more integrated approach, because ultimately, you can have the best evidence base to support your policy recommendation in the world, but if it doesn’t have the support and the backing of those who are actually going to be delivering it and moving it forward, it’s very unlikely to get traction, and it’s very unlikely to be successful. So we, we do view engagement as very essential to what we do, but we also recognize it has a lot of different functions, a lot of different manifestations, and we treat it accordingly.
Sarah McLusky 04:45
Yeah, Well, definitely I can see that with getting I mean, even just those of us who are very much on the outside, like I am in terms of government policy and things like that, it does seem to take, you know, they need so much buy in. It can take such a long time, you know, all these partners and people that have to come together to actually make things happen in the policy world. And so I can see why having that network is so important, and having all those people connected and engaged and having those conversations. Yeah, so maybe you could tell us a bit about some of the things you worked on. I mean, certainly one example is that we were meant to record this conversation a week ago, but we had to delay it because of an urgent contribution to the UK, what was it, the industrial strategy. So, I mean, that sounds pretty high level stuff.
Rosalind Gill 06:26
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this is a really interesting time for anyone who’s working in and around policy, because there’s a time when the government are making quite a lot of you know, they’ve set out their stall. They have five clear missions, and now they’re developing the delivery plans and the changes that they feel need to be made in order to move forward on those five missions. And of course, the principal one is economic growth. And universities and businesses, working together, have an absolutely fundamental role to play in achieving that mission. And I think the government have been quite clear that they the industrial strategy is quite an important mechanism in order to get us there, but the industrial strategy team have only got, I think, until April, to develop some clear recommendations to really shift the dial on the UK’s industrial policy and how it’s going to drive us towards greater economic growth, which is a very short turnaround time. So as an organization, we have been doing, obviously, work over a much longer period of time to develop recommendations that we think can make a big difference. And some of the areas that we’ve focused on, for example, are around private R&D investment in the UK. So the particular cause of our delay last week was, was that so we have been recognizing that, obviously, over a number of years, we’ve seen record levels of public investment in research going into the system. I know that for a raft of reasons, it might always feel like that on the ground, because of the research funding deficits that we have also we also face in the UK. But unfortunately, as public investments have grown, private investment hasn’t grown. Actually, it’s declined a little over the last two years, which is quite a puzzling picture when we know that generally public investment leverages private investment, and that doesn’t seem to have immediately happened in this case. So we’ve been working for the last eight months or so on a piece of work which is led by Sir John Manzoni, but it’s also involves Nancy Rothwell, who’s the Deputy Chair of the Industrial Strategy Council, and she’s, of course, also the former Vice Chancellor of Manchester University. So really trying to understand what cause of this is, but also importantly, what we can do about it, and recognizing, of course, that universities and their strength in research is a really critical part of that. So for us, you know, there’s a not really linear process, working quite closely with universities, with businesses, to try and understand a problem like this and to try and work out what some practical solutions might be. But then also working quite closely with with the Industrial Strategy Council, with government and government departments, to also ensure that what we recommend goes with some of the grain. Because if we just throw something out there that that is that doesn’t sort of align with the priorities, the shared priorities of all of those stakeholders, all that triangle of government, business and universities, it’s not going to be successful. So that’s where the engagement question you asked earlier really comes in, because getting that engagement right is fundamental to success.
Sarah McLusky 09:36
Yeah well, that’s really interesting, and I think it’s a really nice example of of how important it is to get all these things aligned. And as you say, making a recommendation that sort of fits with priorities and things like that as well. Because I know that for a lot of people, a lot of research projects have this vague sort of intention of, oh, we want to talk to policy makers, or we want to do something that influences policy. And it sounds like a really good thing to do in terms of impact, but actually, in reality, that can be a very challenging process, almost, I mean, certainly from the things I’ve been involved with, challenging in terms of, as you say, finding that alignment of what you do with the current priorities, but also challenging sometimes as well with finding the right people to talk to, and, you know, getting into the right kind of conversations that that can be challenging as well. So yeah, all of the work that you’re doing, I can see, is really important to help to pull all of that together.
Rosalind Gill 10:35
And I think sometimes there is a misconception that universities quite slow to change, but I think then in many ways, they’re not, and they’ve shown in the last few years that they’re very adaptable and developing very quickly. And I’d say that one of the areas that I’ve really noticed changing is that there’s a lot more investment into sort of centralized support to universities that are or academic activity that’s about influencing public policy. There’s quite a lot of coordinated efforts between universities to create support mechanisms to help academics to see that route to impact. And actually, the government’s helped itself with it in this space as well, because number of government departments have started to publish their own research priorities, which is is helpful. It means that we’re not all collectively guessing what they might want. They’re actually telling us what research they would like to see to help guide their decisions. So I say that those are two quite positive, positive bits of progress. But then the the other side to that, of course, is that there are also challenges within university sector that make make it more difficult in some ways, to take a strategic, considered, longer term view of the collective impact that the university and all of the people who work within the university, what they’re all kind of pulling towards, because things are quite, quite tight and challenging for the sector at the moment.
Sarah McLusky 12:00
Yeah, oh, that’s really useful to know that the government is, is publishing some kind of direction on research and things they would like to be done. Because, yeah, that that’s, that’s new information to me. So maybe if there’s any links or anything to that, we can get them and put them in the show notes. But yeah, as you say that, well, that long term piece just always seems to be a challenge, whether it’s government, whether it’s universities, you know, governments work on these four year cycles, don’t they? You know where they’ve got to, or even less than that, like you say you’ve got a new government comes in, they’ve got to show they’re making a difference very quickly to keep the public support and and universities as well, having that sense of a long term vision can can be challenging, particularly under the current financial situation. Yeah,
Rosalind Gill 12:46
And actually, you know, I just mentioned the work that we’ve done on private R&D investment, and that’s such a strong message that we get back from industries is that they, they want to see greater consistency, so that they they know what the priorities are that their investments are being being sought for, but also the UK has had a bit of a tendency of spreading itself quite thinly across lots of different areas of economic priority. And I think being the industrial strategy is a very good vehicle, perhaps for us all to get more collective sense of what the what the plan is for reversing some of the economic stagnation that we’ve seen in the UK, and how we can really drive that forward collectively and get behind it collectively as well. So I think it’s a really important point
Sarah McLusky 13:33
Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Oh, well, you’ve certainly very clearly explained to us why where the work you do sits, and why it’s important, and how did you get into doing this sort of thing? What’s been your career journey?
Rosalind Gill 13:44
So I think I’m probably quite a rare example of someone who always sort of knew what I wanted to do. I grew up in a very academic household. My dad was a computational physicist. We actually moved to Holland when I was six weeks old because my dad wanted to work with the top computational physicist at the time who happened to be Dutch. So kind of growing up like I grew up in that environment, and I think being in another country also opens your eyes to how decisions that are made by governments actually do really matter to the experience that you have and the opportunities that you have, and I experienced in Holland a very different education system than we have here. I think in Holland at the time, I assume this might still be the case now, around one in five people went to university, which is obviously quite different to the system that we have, where that kind of expansion has been so important. So I think from my perspective when I was choosing my career like education pathways and choosing what I would want to do next, I always had in my mind that I wanted to influence public policy because I felt that was the best immediate impact I could make, and that driving positive and good government decisions was a was a really good thing to dedicate your career to. So I first worked at Universities UK, which is the representative body for universities for, for the UK, of course,
Rosalind Gill 14:01
The clue is in the name, yeah,
Rosalind Gill 14:36
Exactly. So I worked on a whole range of different issues while I was there and got a lot of exposure. Was actually given huge amount of freedom to really consider what the key issues were for universities. Work with universities to identify those and work across a whole kind of breadth of different areas, which really exposed my understanding of different things that the university sector was grappling with. And I then worked at the University of Bedfordshire as their Director of Policy, which was a sort of two sided role. One side, of course, was influencing the external landscape from the perspective of a teaching intensive institution, but the other side was also understanding how changes were affecting the institution and how strategically we should respond. And it was the kind of post Brexit, Augar review, sort of period of policy. So there was a lot of change the institution was grappling with, including things like the USS registration. There was, there was a lot happening. And of course, now I’m at NCUB, but I think what’s been the sort of golden thread that’s ran through those those roles has always been for me, what I’ve always been interested in is the impact that universities can have externally on economic growth, on society, and how you design an effective policy framework that helps maximize that impact.
Sarah McLusky 16:36
Yeah, definitely. And I think, as you say, not only are universities really important to the UK, but also to the local communities and things that they’re based in. And you know, as you say, the economic impact and the you know, the the influence that as a as like an anchor institution, the the influence that they can have just the decisions they make, what it matters to the local community, where they are. So, yes, well, so a fairly straightforward career journey, then definitely compared to some people that I’ve had on the podcast. So yeah, so along that career journey, I’m sure you’ve done a couple of things that you’re really proud of. Do you want to tell us about some examples?
Rosalind Gill 17:19
Yeah, of course. I mean, I’m doing quite a lot of work at the moment, also with other organizations on sort of how you really grasp policy impacts and assess policy impacts. And I think one of the challenges a lot of organizations have is that they often use sort of, have we influenced a policy decision as their final assessment of their impact, when actually what you really care about is, if I impacted that decision, what ultimately did that decision lead to? And has it been positive? So I think, from my perspective, you know, there are lots of things that that we’ve influenced and done that I’m really proud of, but I think a couple that I’d really highlight. I think one for me was that during the Augar review, which feels like it was a long time ago, but of course, it’s still very much echoing in the shadows of current policy thinking. So that was a big review of post 16 education funding. I think at the start of that review, there was quite a strong view of the the diversity of the university sector was was potentially holding aspects of the sector back or might not be sustainable as a kind of funding funding model going forward. And when I was at the University of Bedfordshire, I did a lot of work, actually with the Student Union to understand what they needed and wanted from, from the from, from the review, and I think that really helped to emphasize just how important the diversity and social mobility in the sector has been to the way the sector has effectiveness. And by working in partnership with the Student Union, even though we had different views on certain things like tuition fees, I think we were able to put together a really influential response to that review and work really closely with the those on the panel to really influence their views on what a diverse higher education system looks like in practice and all the positive things that it drives and contributes to so that’s something I’m very proud of. And I think has, you know, we still see today in the scene as well. But there are other things, I think, in particular in relation to research, ncub, alongside lots of other organizations, has been really at the forefront of calling for that growth in research funding, and I think that has been a very significant part of the funding and policy landscape over the last few years, is I think governments across different political parties have recognized that research and innovation is critical to the UK’s competitiveness and to its growth. And I think, you know, I definitely attribute a lot of the work that my team and NCUB has done to some of that narrative, and also the recognition that within that picture, private R&D really matters too. So I think for me, the there are definitely some examples of particular policy changes that the work that I’ve done has contributed to, but I think where I’ve really I think some of my proudest achievements are actually more about where we’ve achieved a change in perspective, because that has a very enduring impact.
Sarah McLusky 20:29
Yeah, and as you say, it’s this is the thing that you know. You always knew you wanted to do something that that made a difference. So being able to look and think those are the things that have made a difference, even if maybe to the outside world, they’re not the things that you know, it’s not like you’ve changed a law or something, but like, see, even just changing perspective on something can actually, in reality, make a really big difference. Yeah.
Rosalind Gill 20:55
I think it creates the space for others to think with you, because when you’ve got a more favorable policy environment where there’s recognition that actually, you know, we need to take seriously this issue of private R&D investment. We need to be developing solutions to the decline that we’re seeing. We need to be making ourselves more competitive destination. I think what you’re doing by changing the perspective and making policy makers think in that way is you create a forum for your own ideas to be heard, but also for others to be thinking about what contributions and thoughts and reflections and solutions that they might and sometimes those solutions come from the most unexpected places, which is why I’m more than happy to add a link to the research interests from government to the podcast, because it might be that some of your listeners will have reflections and thoughts in some of those areas that could be really impactful and make a real difference.
Sarah McLusky 21:48
Yeah, that’s it. And sometimes bringing those ideas from a really diverse range of different places can make a massive difference. But I love your turn of phrase there, when you said, it gives those opportunities to think with people. And I think that’s a really nice way of framing it. Yeah, I’m sure, though, that this hasn’t, at times, been without its challenges. So what are some of the hurdles you’ve had to overcome throughout your career?
Rosalind Gill 22:12
Yeah, I mean, I mean, certainly there have been plenty. I think many people will recognize that over the last few years, we’ve had a lot of turbulence in political leadership, so that has, at times, meant that things that we have been working on and gaining good traction on has very suddenly stopped, because there’s been a change in in leadership, and therefore either a change in priority or need to rebadge something as as as as the new new administrations, so that that’s that can be quite challenging to navigate. And sometimes you actually look back at something you maybe worked on five years ago and think, oh, that’s become that’s gone with the grain again. We can use that again. But the grain has changed a lot in the last few years, and that’s been difficult. I think the the other aspect of it that’s that’s often difficult, is that it hasn’t been the easiest environment in terms of recognition of just how important that role of universities in the UK is. When we talk to businesses, they almost always tell us that the university sector is probably the UK’s strongest strategic asset, that when you’re a UK country director and you’re pitching for investment in the UK to your heads in another country there, it doesn’t take long for you to get to the university system as one of the main reasons for that investment. And yet, I don’t think that has properly and fully been heard by a general public and by policy makers. And I think one of the issues, and I’ve reflected on this quite a lot, I think one of the problems is because universities are so embedded, and there are so many multifaceted impacts that they make, that when we tell the story of our impact, there are a lot of ands, if we do this and we do that, you know, we have we produce the graduates, and we do research applications, and we do consultancy, and we do just the local regeneration. We provide that anchor role as an institution. So there is just so many ands that I think get a little bit lost in the detail. So I think we need to sharpen that story and so that we can continue to play the impactful when we recognized for it.
Sarah McLusky 24:25
Yeah, I think that that really makes a lot of sense to me, actually, yeah, because it is universities just touch so many parts of life that it isn’t always a very kind of coherent story about what difference they make, and increasingly in this very kind of brand, messaging driven world that we’re in, and people are so influenced by that sort of stuff. But it if it is, if you can’t get to the point quickly, then sometimes that message gets completely lost, doesn’t it? Yeah, oh, but I also completely resonate with you saying that things come in and out of fashion. I’ve been doing the kind of work I do for long enough to see it’s like, things come around about every five years, and then yeah, it’s like, oh, we’re doing that again. Are we okay?
Rosalind Gill 25:09
Yeah, I thought I’ve assessed that the I think the light, the shelf life, tends to be around three years big sector initiative, so we had something like the efficiency exchange, that’s about 10 years ago now, but that had about three years. Yeah, there was the big civic universities focus. That had about three years. Yeah, yeah. There’s definitely things that come and go, but that doesn’t mean that when they go, they’ve
Sarah McLusky 25:35
gone forever. Yes, I think that’s worth knowing. Anybody who’s quite new to this world, things will come round Yes, things will come back round again. Fantastic. Well, my last question for you is one that I ask all my guests, which is, if you had a magic wand, what would you change about the little corner of the research-adjacent world that you work in?
Rosalind Gill 25:57
I find this one so difficult to answer, Sarah, because magic wand sort of implies that it requires, you know, it’s not something that we can drive, and I’ve struggled to think of anything that we can’t drive. I think, you know, everything is within our gift. So I guess the thing that I would most like to see changed is that I think sometimes we view something like knowledge exchange as quite an abstract kind of concept when actually it’s something that’s people moving between different careers, people sharing their ideas, expanding their ideas through networking and co creation. And I’d like to see, I’d like to see much more sort of investment and support for people to be able to move freely between different sectors, think freely between different ideas. And I know that sounds a bit abstract, but, but I think we, we somehow seem to kind of self impose some some boundaries. And some of that, I think, is self imposed, and some of it’s kind of around institutional policy or framing or and it’s a wicked problem. So if we can, if we can see the human side of this more and engage with the human side more, I think we’d succeed better.
Sarah McLusky 27:16
Yeah, I think you’re not the first person to have said they want to use their magic wand to break down some of these silos. And as you say, so, many of these problems we’re facing at the moment need lots of different disciplines to work together. They need, like universities and researchers and policy makers and people like us to work together and and find those solutions. And at the moment, it is, we’re almost, yeah, we forget that it’s about people rather than we think it’s, it’s like some sort of abstract thing, when really it’s about people talking to people and sharing ideas and getting things done. So yeah, that is lovely. And yes, I always think of the magic wand as being it’s not so much that it’s it’s magical, but it’s more that it takes down the the barriers of money and time, and, you know, things like that, get things happening a bit quicker. So, yes, fantastic. Oh, well, to wrap up our conversation, then if anybody would like to get in touch with you or find out more about the work that you do, whereabouts would you send them?
Rosalind Gill 28:22
Yeah, well, we have a fabulous website. So that’s ncub.co.uk, and really, there’s a lot of material on there that includes all of the policy and evidence reports that we do, a lot of overviews of the types of projects that we have running. But importantly, it also includes a lot of showcasing of university business collaborations and what they’re achieving and doing in practice. So that’s a great place to start. We also have a newsletter, have a monthly newsletter that anybody can access, as well as a weekly newsletter for our members. And you know, other than that, I think we’re a very accessible team, so if anyone would want to reach out to us, there’s different ways of doing that, and there are contact details for that are on our on our web page. So we’re always welcoming reflections
Rosalind Gill 28:23
Yeah we’ll get the links and put them in the show notes. And do you do LinkedIn or BlueSky or anything like that
Rosalind Gill 29:21
Oh, it’s bit fluid at the moment, so I know, so I definitely do LinkedIn, yeah. So, and the organization does LinkedIn as well, so you can definitely follow us on there. We have, at the moment, only got an X account, and we are on the verge of converting to BlueSky as well so do follow us on that too.
Sarah McLusky 29:42
Yes, it’s all a bit kind of in the in the middle, messy middle at the moment, in that respect, isn’t it? Yes. Oh well. Thank you so much, Rosalind for coming along and telling us about your story. It’s been really interesting. Thank you.
Rosalind Gill 29:56
Brilliant. Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah McLusky 29:57
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent. If you’re listening in a podcast app, please check your subscribed and then use the links in the episode description to find full show notes and to follow the podcast on LinkedIn or Instagram. You can also find all the links and other episodes at www.researchadjacent.com. Research Adjacent is presented and produced by Sarah McLusky, and the theme music is by Lemon Music Studios on Pixabay. And you, yes you, get a big gold star for listening right to the end. See you next time.
